not interested in solving problems

But don’t take my word for it. The folks on their IRC channel have put it pretty plainly themselves. They’re not interested in offering solutions to problems, they instead seem interested in bemoaning their lot in life for fun and profit.

— Log opened Wed Sep 03 23:06:26 2008
23:06 -!- Irssi: #boycottnovell: Total of 17 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 14 normal]
23:06 -!- Irssi: Join to #boycottnovell was synced in 0 secs
23:06 < cj> yay!
23:06 <@schestowitz> I need you to show me where they do this.
23:06 < seller_liar> and now globo depends from money governement
23:07 < seller_liar> what?
23:07 <@schestowitz> I mean, if you find examples or just articles (even in Protuguese) then it can be shown to Brazilian people what Globo does to them.
23:07 <@schestowitz> Hi, cj.
23:08 < cj> hi there, schestowitz! for the record, I am close with a bunch of folks at Novell and I am on contract at MS
23:08 < seller_liar> At moment , I find only that article above
23:08 < cj> also, I’m one of the first 20 or so users of this network :)
23:08 < cj> (freenode/openprojects/linpeople)
23:08 < seller_liar> linpeople?
23:08 < cj> seller_liar: check
23:09 < tessier__> cj: So you gonna dish up the scoop on those sleezeballs over at Novell? :)
23:09 <@schestowitz> :-)
23:09 < cj> seller_liar: it was rob levin’s first channel on the “linux internet support cooperative”
23:09 < seller_liar> cj:ok
23:09 < cj> tessier__: heh, none of them are sleezeballs afaict. they’re on the level.
23:11 <@schestowitz> What contract at Microsoft?
23:11 < cj> schestowitz: testing a feature in the next release of forefront
23:14 < cj> schestowitz: implementation of the GAPA stuff documented here:
23:15 <@schestowitz> Which company for?
23:15 < cj> schestowitz: saxon & taylor
23:16 <@schestowitz> Got homepage?
23:16 < seller_liar> schestowitz: sorry , I don t have any real proof ,but i believe this contracts exists
23:16 < cj>
23:16 < seller_liar> schestowitz: oops, a mistake ,forget about it
23:16 < cj> sorry, sakson :)
23:18 <@schestowitz> :)
23:19 <@schestowitz> Are you in contract with Microsoft?
23:19 < cj> as for miguel’s motives, I think he’s really quite interested in helping the f/oss folks out. every time I’ve spoken with him, he has come across as a well-meaning individual.
23:19 < cj> schestowitz: my contract is with S&T. They have a direct relationship with MSFT
23:20 <@schestowitz> Yes, I know. A friend of him told me (mutual friend)
23:20 <@schestowitz> But he’s tied to more than just F/OSS.
23:21 < cj> He and RMS have a long history together. They both mean well, but see the problem from a different perspective. Richard is more ideological. Miguel is more pragmatic.
23:21 <@schestowitz> I see it differently.
23:21 < cj> I can’t say that I agree with either of them fully, but their end goal is positive and not self-serving.
23:21 <@schestowitz> People like Gates really believe and convince themselves that they do good. But they do fraud.
23:22 <@schestowitz> Likewise, although it’s a bad analogy, Miguel looks to elev ate a company like Novell, please his mates from Microsoft (which he cannot realise is quite the criminal entity) and F/OSS is just somewhere among his priorities.
23:22 < cj> schestowitz: nothing is black and white. he heads the largest do-gooder institute ever seen in the world. he also ran a company that has been convicted of antitrust… many times.
23:23 < cj> (I was referring to gates)
23:23 <@schestowitz> Gates Foundation is not a do-gooder.
23:23 < cj> oh?
23:23 <@schestowitz> The charity is a ‘side effect’ that’s embellished via lots of grassroots/astroturf
23:24 <@schestowitz> You can see if as it happens in big magazine he owns.
23:24 < cj> they’ve invested heavily in my daughters’ hospital for one…
23:24 <@schestowitz> The Gates FOundation is a vehicle for him (and Warren) to escape tax and get some more benefit and a feelgood sensation.
23:24 <@schestowitz> cj: some thieves give some of the loot away.
23:25 <@schestowitz> The classic robber baron is one that’s also glorified.
23:25 <@schestowitz> I ask you kindly to watch the following video:
23:25 <@schestowitz> (It’s embedded in the page)
23:27 < cj> I’ll take a look when I get home. thanks.
23:27 <@schestowitz> It’s a lot of work to undo damage of brainwash. Such as the glorification of the Novell/Microsoft deal, where journalists totally neglect the view of programmer who actually built the system.
23:27 < cj> schestowitz: what is a way to improve the situation? how can either or both of the companies be improved so that you don’t see it as such a catastrophe?
23:28 <@schestowitz> BTW, Oracle seems to be a big fraud as well (just been in the news)
23:28 < cj> heh, I thought everybody knew about Larry…
23:28 <@schestowitz> Securities fraud… Ellison shredded E-mails that serve as evidence; as did Intel.
23:29 <@schestowitz> Larry is crazy. I knew he was a snake when I read about him breaking the law with his fancy yacht/plane fetish. He even joked about breaking the law in a video interview I watched.
23:30 <@schestowitz> There’s that book about ‘God’ and ‘Ellison’. What’s the difference between God and Ellison? God doesn’t think he’s Ellison. To Larry, it’s all about being richer and bigger than Gates. He too ‘donates’ (invests) in hospitals.
23:34 < cj> so what’s a proactive solution?
23:35 < cj> there needs to be a relationship between proprietary and free software vendors. how should that relationship be carried out, optimally?
23:36 <@schestowitz> Well, ego elation in big companies is an issue. They have no boundaries, so they ‘shape’ their reports and ruthlessly destroy the small competitors. The work RMS does always revolves around society, not business. He raises this point constantly because people are mistakenly educated so as to believe good business make a good society (there’s no such relationship).
23:36 < cj> is it best to have standards bodies (w3c, ieee, etc) take that roll? should vendors who sell Free software be banned from doing business with those who produce proprietary software?
23:37 < cj> s/roll/role/
23:37 < tessier__> schestowitz: How did Ellison break the law with his yacht/plane fetish?
23:37 < wasabi> And who would enforce said bans? Would we put people in prison? :)
23:37 <@schestowitz> RMS would probably say based on his experience that all business needs to evolve towards a model of sharing, _in due time_. A digital world can take advantage of this and blow the gap between poverty and affluence.
23:37 <@schestowitz> tessier: he flew under a bridge.
23:37 < cj> oh, wassabi is another infiltrat0r, fyi :)
23:37 <@schestowitz> It’s against aviation policies.
23:38 <@schestowitz> Bans?
23:40 < cj> schestowitz: should vendors who sell Free software be banned from doing business with those who produce proprietary software?
23:43 <@schestowitz> In what context and why?
23:44 < cj> schestowitz: have you been reading what I wrote above?
23:44 <@schestowitz> Yes, I have.
23:45 < cj> schestowitz: I’m asking what novell and microsoft are doing wrong, and what can be done to improve the process so that all participants are happy.
23:45 <@schestowitz> About standards.
23:45 < cj> they are complying with the GPL, BSD and MIT/X11 licenses… this doesn’t seem to be enough?
23:45 < cj> oh, LGPL as well
23:45 < cj> and Artistic
23:45 <@schestowitz> I think the answer is obvious. It didn’t cost Microsoft a dime to participate in the ISO standards for document and the W3C’s work.
23:45 < cj> and loads of others…
23:45 < cj> schestowitz: oh!?
23:45 <@schestowitz> Instead they run away form standards and demand cash for anti-standards.
23:46 < cj> schestowitz: have you seen what the cost is to be a member of the w3c? for a company Microsoft’s size, it’s huge.
23:46 < cj> more than “a dime”
23:46 <@schestowitz> That’s beside the point.
23:47 <@schestowitz> If they don’t take the lead, they can follow and participate at some level. The W3C doesn’t make use of proprietary and patent-ridden bits.
23:47 <@schestowitz> Not even GIF
23:47 < cj> schestowitz: I think you’re misinformed. do you know what ECMA-335 is, for instance?
23:47 <@schestowitz> As for Microsoft, it’s not trying to contaminate W3C (Wilson) with DRM and JS ruin.
23:47 <@schestowitz> I don’t know the code.
23:49 < cj> schestowitz: there are tons of patents on this technology, for instance:
23:49 < cj>
23:50 < cj> schestowitz: I agree that the relationship between Novell and Microsoft is sub-optimal, but ranting about things which are inaccurate rather than offering proactive steps helps noone.
23:50 <@schestowitz> /whose/ patents?
23:51 <@schestowitz> See the following to meet the point that’s arrived here:
23:52 < cj> schestowitz: *shrug* lots of folks. mostly at MS, I assume.
23:52 < cj>
23:54 <@schestowitz> I already know that they have such patents. That’s not news to anyone.
23:54 <@schestowitz> Who again are you?
23:55 < cj> The W3C doesn’t make use of proprietary and patent-ridden bits.
23:55 < cj> why did you say that if you already know that they have such patents?
23:55 < cj> did you not know that the W3C publishes TRs about XML?
23:56 <@schestowitz> The W3C acts as a form of patent pool.
23:56 <@schestowitz> Much like LiMo.
23:56 < cj> <- I’m ‘Da_Man’ there
23:57 < cj>
23:58 < cj> I guess that makes me a founding member of freenode
— Day changed Thu Sep 04 2008
00:13 <@schestowitz> Nice one.
00:13 * schestowitz slow to reply because of multitasking
00:16 < tessier__> cj: Microsoft and Novell are trying to kill FOSS and maintain their monopoly. That’s wrong.
00:16 < tessier__> They were already convicted of having such a monopoly by Judge Jackson.
00:17 <@schestowitz> Judge Jackson called them “Criminals”.
00:18 < tessier__> All of the leaked documents about how they want to kill FOSS are pretty damning too
00:19 < tessier__> I take it personally because if they kill FOSS they kill my career. Linux paid for my house.
00:19 <@schestowitz> “I also expect a serious effort, backed by several billion dollars in bribe money (oops, excuse me, campaign contributions), to get open-source software outlawed on some kind of theory that it aids terrorists.”
00:19 <@schestowitz> ” We can only defeat that by making sure that national governments become so attached to open-source code that their military men and bureaucrats will short-stop the bribed legislators, rather than let their vital infrastructure be outlawed.”
00:20 < cj> tessier__: I do not believe that MS or Novell are trying to kill F/OSS
00:21 < tessier__> cj: MS says it is. It’s a cancer, remember?
00:21 < cj> nor could they were they to want to
00:21 < tessier__> cj: Probably not. But they have certainly killed lots of other companies.
00:22 < cj> tessier__: perhaps someone employed by MS said that, I’ll give you that. The folks I’ve worked with don’t seem to feel that way.
00:22 < tessier__> cj: The folks you work with don’t run MS.
00:22 < tessier__> They spent a lot of money on a “Linux is a cancer” campaign which came from the top.
00:22 < cj> tessier__: if you mean they intend to bring redhat or canonical to bankruptcy, perhaps I’d buy that. but linux is not a company.
00:23 < tessier__> cj: They didn’t say RedHat or Canonical. They said Linux was a cancer.
00:23 <@schestowitz> *LOL* “they don’t say it to me” … “Microsoft really loves open source”..”they are nice people”…….*LOL* Classic.
00:23 < cj> tessier__: so you’re confused?
00:23 < tessier__> I’m not confused at all.
00:24 <@schestowitz> tessier: that’s not correct. The people at the ‘bottom’ say that too.
00:24 < cj> “they have certainly killed lots of other companies” sounds non-sequiter for someone who is not confused…
00:24 <@schestowitz> They just can’t say it in public. Let me find something.
00:25 <@schestowitz>
00:25 < cj> schestowitz: if you continue to lower yourself to ad homonym, you’ll hurt your credibility further.
00:26 <@schestowitz> “Open source is stealing. What open source does is copying proprietary software and giving it away for free. Open source is not about innovation or innovating, it’s about copying. It infringes on everybody’s patents. Not just Microsoft’s. But we’re just the most vocal about it. We just can not see this happening and not do anything to protect our business […] What open source and communism have in common, is that there
00:26 <@schestowitz> are both failed systems”.
00:26 <@schestowitz> cj: ad hominem? Where?
00:27 < cj> *LOL*? “they are nice people”?
00:27 < cj> schestowitz: laughing and misquoting
00:32 < cj> I’m sorry to hear that some folks feel that way. However, those that I’ve spoken with don’t hold that opinion.
00:32 < cj> and yes, tessier__, some of my friends do run parts of microsoft.
00:33 < cj> this conversation strikes me as xenophobic…
00:33 <@schestowitz> Good for them. They take order from people who break the law.
00:33 <@schestowitz> *orders
00:33 <@schestowitz> cj: sadly for them, they fail to understand who they serve and what the impact on society is. It’s call Kool-Aid.
00:34 < cj> schestowitz: you seem unfit to make that judgment… you do not know them or their intent…
00:35 < cj> schestowitz: and I’m still waiting for your recommendations on how to adjust the status quo so that it meets the needs of society in a better way.
00:35 <@schestowitz> I saw what they write. Patronisation is dangerous. A company whose employees express desire to ’tilt “X” into the death spiral’ and use ISVs as “pawns” and “one night stands”.
00:35 < cj> schestowitz: and no, “tear it down and start all over” doesn’t count, in my book.
00:36 <@schestowitz> On whose behalf are you asking?
00:36 < cj> free software developers
00:37 < cj> well, on my own as a free software developer
00:43 < cj> it would be presunmptive of me to ask on the behalf of others, without having their consent :)
00:51 <@schestowitz> Who job do you do for Microsoft?
00:52 < cj> schestowitz: did you send folks to spam #mono?
00:52 < cj> who job?
00:53 <@schestowitz> ???
00:53 < cj> I do not understand “Who job do you do”
00:53 <@schestowitz> Spam Mono? Send? What am I? Some don who ‘sends’ peple…?
00:54 < cj> schestowitz: *shrug* someone there suggested the spammers were your “lackeys”
00:55 < cj> I don’t know why he would have said that, but I thought I would ask you rather than accuse you. perhaps I can defend your reputation?
00:55 < cj> if you were asking what I do at MS, I said above. allow me to scroll back…
00:56 < cj> testing a feature in the next release of forefront; implementation of the GAPA stuff documented here:
00:58 <@schestowitz> Why doesn’t the Almighty Microsoft make security a feature of the O/S? If it came make a browser a feature you cannot even remove from the O/S, why not security?
00:59 < cj> schestowitz: they did. it’s in vista. GAPA is an additional feature.
01:00 < cj> when you buy an individual system, you don’t really need a enterprise-wide managed firewall.
01:00 < cj> but it does come with a personal firewall.
01:00 < cj> s/ a / an /
01:01 <@schestowitz> it’s a nice business model that Microsoft has got going. They should make the O/S more crashy (they already did that with LH/Vista) and then sell better stability as a product.
01:01 <@schestowitz> Vista is not secure. It’s a Big Lie.
01:01 <@schestowitz> It was proven by scientists.
01:01 < cj> *shrug* I’m not claiming that vista is a good OS. I’m just answering your question.
01:04 < cj> so, do you have any recommendations for improving the social responsibility of Novell and MS? What would you consider a worthwhile move on the part of either of the companies?
01:05 < cj> or are you just using the boycottnovell campaign as a platform to enlarge your ego?
01:06 <@schestowitz> The SEC is advised to pay a long visit to both companies and inform the investors it was made to protect about the truth; that’ll be a good start.
01:06 < cj> what would be a positive end to this campaign? The Montgomery Bus Boycot was not held to destroy the bus system, it was held to improve the situation and gather attention to a problem which had a solution.
01:07 < cj> to me, it seems like you are complaining for the sake of complaining with a side effect of you getting attention…
01:08 < cj> schestowitz: I mean what could the companies do *themselves*? Is your recommendation really that the companies continue as they are until the authorities *make* them do something else?
01:10 < cj> you have yet to confirm or deny that spammers were sent to #mono at your behest…
01:11 < tessier> First we need to get rid of software patents.
01:11 < tessier> Then MS can’t claim (but never prove) that Linux violates hundreds of their patenst
01:11 < tessier> patents
01:12 < tessier> To say Linux violates hundreds of patents but never say which ones so they can be fixed is a pretty sleezy move.
01:12 < cj> perhaps reform would be a more feasible bet. I’m not a fan of software patents either, but they’re already part of society.
01:13 < cj> classifying software as a form of mathematics would bring the tower crumbling down… but that may be more catostrophe than can be handled…
01:13 <@schestowitz> I never ‘sent’ anyone anywhere and I didn’t know a Mono channel exists. I knew about go-oo
01:14 < cj>, #mono
01:16 -!- Irssi: #boycottnovell: Total of 16 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 13 normal]
01:18 <@schestowitz> No, thank you, sir.
01:18 < cj> schestowitz: it seems the spammers are from the same domain as mib_e1zoms / mib_jm8dfl
01:19 <@schestowitz> Look, I won’t be spending time with some accusations that are baseless and stupid and false. Mib is mibbit.
01:21 < cj> I’m not accusing. I’m just noting that it seems to me that the regulars of this channel react to a rational conversation with network abuse.
01:21 < cj> mib_e1zoms: was that you?
01:21 < cj> mib_jm8dfl: ^^
01:22 <@schestowitz> I don’t use mibbit
01:22 < cj> schestowitz: … I didn’t claim that you did?
01:23 <@schestowitz> I find it amusing if not flattering that any form of inconvenience to Mono is now blamed on me, by default.
01:23 < cj> :)
01:24 < cj> schestowitz: have you read this?
01:24 < cj>
01:29 < cj> Q: Certainly you’re aware that some observers are skeptical about the concept of Microsoft having an open source strategy. How do you respond to this?
01:29 < cj> Our open source strategy, now and in the future, is to continue a journey in which we participate with others in learning how open source products and technologies, Microsoft products and technologiesand sometimes open source products and technologies from Microsoftcan coexist, combine, and comingle in ways that offer value to customers, developers and IT administrators, partners businesses, and, as a commercial company, our shareholders.
01:29 < cj> But our strategy remains unchanged. Microsoft competes with Linux and Unix servers with Windows servers; we’re going to find ways to interoperate between Linux and Windows because lots of our customers run both; and we want to grow the open-source ecosystem as it relates to Microsoft software.
01:38 < cj> should the Apache Software Foundation be boycotted as well? If not, what is the distinction?
01:40 * schestowitz catching up
01:42 <@schestowitz> ct: you come here as a person who works for Microsoft (indirectly) and you sing about the wonders of Microsoft. Do you even know what Ramji is doing? Search BN as this was covered before. The same with Apache. It’s all there.
01:42 < cj> sorry, I missed the part where I was singing about the wonders…
04:01 < tessier> Software patents are completely unworkable. Reform is not an option.
04:01 < tessier> Software is math and you can’t patent math.
04:01 < tessier> It’s not a matter of classification, it’s a matter of fact.
04:02 < tessier> You can’t count to infinity without reproducing the entire source code of Windows Vista. Count yourself lucky nobody is pushing the issue of copyright in general.
04:13 < wasabi> You can have a bunch of monkeys work forever, and eventualy they’ll write a book.
04:13 < wasabi> But that book is still copyrighted.
04:14 < wasabi> I fail to see the conclusion properly following hte premises.
04:14 < wasabi> patent law, and most law, isn’t about weird theoritical abstracts.
04:15 < wasabi> it’s about real world things, in our country, and others, in this day and time.
04:40 < tessier> But I’m not talking about monkeys typing randomly. I’m talking about math
04:41 < tessier> And math cannot be patented.
04:42 -!- cj was kicked from #boycottnovell by [H]omer [[H]omer]
— Log closed Thu Sep 04 04:42:13 2008
— Log opened Thu Sep 04 04:42:34 2008
04:42 -!- Irssi: #boycottnovell: Total of 16 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 13 normal]
04:42 -!- mode/#boycottnovell [+b *!*@pdpc/supporter/monthlybronze/cj] by ChanServ
04:42 -!- cj was kicked from #boycottnovell by ChanServ [Banned: Goodbye Astroturfer]
— Log closed Thu Sep 04 04:42:34 2008

19 responses to “ not interested in solving problems”

  1. Hah, so instead of working with you to solve the problems they kick-ban you from the channel for being rational and not being hateful enough of Microsoft.

    Stay classy, BoycottNovell.

  2. @schestowitz> Look, I won’t be spending time with some accusations that are baseless and stupid and false.

    He won’t be spending time on them, unless they’re his allegations printed on his website.

    Whoops, I’d better watch out – I might end off on his McCarthy list! (I mean, “Credibility Index”)

  3. I can feel your pain.Once there was a discussion on the AutoRealm mailing list, which language a rewrite should use and I proposed C#. It was rejected because people didn’t want to base their program on a non-free tool chain. I systematically defeated their arguments, but what did I get? An email that the discussion is closed. Yes, no apology, but an immature rant that I’m a pain in the ass and should shut up. Well, sucks for them.

  4. Seth,

    Yeah, sorry. Jeff said the same thing. I’ll try to re-format it when I get some time. It’s currently just a dump of the irssi log in a fixed-width font.



  5. And their attitude is surprising in what way? Why bother with them? They are insignificant, unprofessional zealots whose rants actually matter little outside of their ilk.

    At some point, really, you just have to give up on the luddites who refuse to be rational and let them all die out. Spend your energies on something more worthwhile, like preparing for PDC (wish I could go…).

  6. It just confirms what I’ve been suspecting all along. is doing more to spread divisions among the Free Software community. I’ve had enough with people treating mono as some kind of disease, some kind of infection.

    And kicking you off the channel just shows them up as what they truly are. Not defenders of OpenSource, but dividers.

  7. I’m posting the following on EdRoy’s site. Since he doesn’t seem to be a fan of free speech or rational discussions, I expect he’ll tear it down before it’s seen there.

    Hash: SHA1

    Hey there Roy,

    Thanks for the write-up. I’d love to have a rational conversation
    about this with you. However, you have shown a lack of interest in
    facilitating such a conversation (kick/banning from the channel,
    failing to provide a link to the chat log), so I’ll post a copy of
    this comment on my blog as well, since you’re probably not going to
    leave it up on yours.

    As I said here (, I think that you’ve got good
    intentions. I’d like to know what you are working toward, though.
    What is the end goal? What would cause you to feel that your call to
    boycott has been successful? Without such a goal, it seems that your
    activism (which I support) is being done only to gain attention (which
    I do not support).

    In response to your above accusation that the claims (I assume you
    refer to the claim that you or your fellow channel members may have
    “spammed”’s #mono channel) were unfounded, I disagree.
    After receiving network abuse on the channel, the perpetrators from
    the domain were banned. It was found that some of your
    channel members hail from the same network:

    01:17 [freenode] -!- mib_e1zoms
    01:17 [freenode] -!- ircname :
    01:17 [freenode] -!- channels : #boycottnovell
    01:17 [freenode] -!- server : []
    01:17 [freenode] -!- away : Auto away
    01:17 [freenode] -!- End of WHOIS

    This seems like more than a coincidence to me, however there are many
    folks on freenode from that network. *shrug*

    I note that although you mention in the topic of #boycottnovell that
    the channel content is logged publicly, you claim that I did not have
    permission to post the log. I consider the claim in your topic to be
    “permission” to log it publicly.

    18:54 [freenode] -!- Topic for #boycottnovell: Exploring the reality
    behind exclusionary deals
    with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications
    (publicly logged)

    To be clear of my affiliations, I have been a GNU/Linux user,
    developer, supporter and activist since 1994. I am one of the
    founding members of the IRC network on which you host your
    #boycottnovell channel. As it states in the kick/ban message, I
    contribute financially on a monthly basis to the PDPC, which
    administers the network:

    04:42 -!- mode/#boycottnovell [+b *!*@pdpc/supporter/monthlybronze/cj] by ChanServ
    04:42 -!- cj was kicked from #boycottnovell by ChanServ [Banned: Goodbye Astroturfer]

    I’ve contributed patches to the Mono codebase since 2003, Since 2006
    I’ve been maintaining a gtk+ widget that I’ve been using since 1999.
    I am working with Mirco Bauer to become a Debian Developer. During
    2004 and 2005, I volunteered my time organizing and speaking at the
    Seattle Perl Users’ Group. And yes, I am currently performing a
    contract at Microsoft in Redmond.

    I feel that this experience gives me a unique perspective on the
    relationship between Microsoft and the Open Source / Free Software
    world. As I said before, I agree that the relationship is not optimal
    in its current state. I agree that it needs some work. I’m willing
    to do that work, and I would appreciate any support that you and your
    friends can provide. If you aren’t interested in identifying or
    solving these problems, however, please don’t stand in the way of
    those who are.


    C.J. Adams-Collier
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)


  8. Sigh, Boycott Novell…

    They originally had a good purpose. They used to simply point out actual problems with Novell, and actually suggested on ways to fix those said problems. It seems that nowadays, they don’t do any of that. Heck, the Linsux community gives better advice than Skestowitz ever will.

    I’m just disgusted by how brainwashed these folks are. Their arguements are totally bunk, and they achieve nothing anymore.

  9. First time I see someone start a conversation bragging about how important he is, and afterwards complain about ad hominem. Sign that you spend too much time caring about self.

    So hi there, I’m mr nobody for you. I have a simple answer to your question. What should MS do to stop being evil? Here are some ideas:

    – Embrace OpenDocument.
    – Embrace Ogg Vorbis/Theora.
    – Embrace HTML (it’s about time…).

    Needless to say, this will never happen. If they embrace OpenDocument they lose their Office cash cow (ever tried price competition against free?). If they embrace Ogg they lose their codec royalties. Etc.

    In conclussion, the best thing MS can do to stop being evil is go back to the pit. Which ironicaly it is working hard to archieve.


    You’re wasting your time. Schestowitz needs to imagine Microsoft is after him, otherwise all his efforts are for nothing. He’s just another one of those psychotic zealots that hurt free software more than help it.

    He’s a 24/7/365 FUD mill. Steve Ballmer’s wet dream.

  11. Hey there Rob,

    Please don’t confuse what I said with trying to inflate my importance. If RMS is right, I’m roughly 1/5,000,000th as important as the whole of the Free Software community. I was merely identifying myself and providing verifiable data so that I wouldn’t be discarded as an outsider commenting on something about which I know nothing. There are many folks who have contributed far more to our community than I have over the last 15 years or so. Just ‘cuz I’ve been involved for a while doesn’t make me any more important than our newcomers.

    Thank you for the suggestions. I think that supporting the various Xiph codecs would be great. I think Microsoft should have begun working with Sun and provided support for the Open Document format instead of creating its own proprietary format and trying to have it standardized.

    As for HTML, I think Microsoft has embraced it it, but it has also created proprietary extensions which will only render in its proprietary browser. I personally avoid using IE as often as I can. So, what steps can we take to prove to a large corporation that it is in its own best interest to play nice with its neighbors?

    I don’t want Microsoft to cease existing as an entity. It has done a lot to improve the world of technology. A lot of the hardware for which the Free Software community writes software wouldn’t exist if the demand wasn’t created by for-profit entities. I *would*, however, like to see such entities decrease the abuse of the power that they have gained.



  12. > I think Microsoft should have begun working with Sun and provided support for the Open Document format instead of creating its own proprietary format and trying to have it standardized.

    Of course. But since it’s not in their interest to do that, they won’t. It’s a perfectly understandable business decision. If the rules say you can abuse everyone, the market commands you to do it (if you don’t, someone else will, and your investors won’t be happy).

    But, of course, the market also says you can’t out-price a free (as in beer) product. So it mustn’t be that bad.

    > As for HTML, I think Microsoft has embraced it it

    Yeah, but as in “embrace & extend”. Different story (you know about it).

    > So, what steps can we take to prove to a large corporation that it is in its own best interest to play nice with its neighbors?

    Firefox is the best step I’ve seen in this direction. Microsoft will learn to behave when it no longer is in a dominant position (similarly, if other companies had the same power Microsoft does, they would become “evil” as well; watch out for Google…).

    > I don’t want Microsoft to cease existing as an entity.

    What do you call an entity? What is Microsoft? Is it a name? A company as it exists today? A trademark that can have different meanings yesterday and tomorrow?

    I want Microsoft to cease existing in the way it exists today, an abusive monopoly. Eventually, if we succeed, Microsoft will cease being what it is now. Maybe it goes bankrupt, or maybe it re-invents itself, almost from scratch. Whatever happens, the entry door to the free world is always open. Actually, there’s no door, or wall, not even a fence.

    And I can’t talk for Roy, but my guess is that he would subscribe my POV.

    P.S: I forgot a big one in my list: – Stop arm-twisting OEMs to deny entry in the market to competitors.

  13. Thanks for taking the time to reply, Robert.

    I agree with what you’ve written here. For the most part, I see eye to eye with Roy. That said, we do disagree on one thing: I believe that Microsoft (or parts thereof) are interested in working with the Free Software world and should be treated as part of the community. Based on my interaction with the members of the BN group, it seems that they are completely closed to the idea of working with Microsoft and instead wish to do harm in order to avenge the wrongdoing of the past.

    I am under the impression that violence begets violence and that if we are to work together, we need to take small positive steps with those that will work with us, despite the poor choices of those who are not interested in working toward a positive outcome.

    My $0.02.

    Sorry I don’t have more time to respond in detail. I’ve got to get back to work :)



  14. > I believe that Microsoft (or parts thereof) are interested in working with the Free Software world and should be treated as part of the community ..

    You’re not serious, Microsoft’s actions from the browser wars to taking control of Java to the Novells covenant clearly illustrates its real intentions regarding Open Source, in short to subvert it from the inside ..

    “Microsoft has no choice, we must seize control [of] the Java platform!”

    OSS projects have been able to gain a foothold in many server applications because of the wide utility of highly commoditized, simple protocols. By extending these protocols and developing new protocols, we can deny OSS projects entry into the market.

    Lastly, part financing the SCO case isn’t ‘ working with the Free Software world’ ..

  15. You’re not serious, Microsoft’s actions from the browser wars to taking control of Java to the Novells covenant clearly illustrates its real intentions regarding Open Source, in short to subvert it from the inside ..

    Yes, I’m serious. That’s a pessimistic attitude you’ve got there. I’ve heard it said that one should learn to love their enemies, suggesting that this will lead to having none.

    The Microsoft devs I’ve worked with aren’t interested in subverting the Free Software world. Corporate interests may be different, but I’m interested in working with the folks on the ground. :)

    Lastly, part financing the SCO case isn’t ‘ working with the Free Software world’ ..

    Sure, but this isn’t the norm. We need to learn to forgive mistakes in order to make progress. I agree, we should not believe everything we read or assume everyone’s doing things for the best interest of everyone. *shrug* If you don’t want to work with “the enemy,” you need not. My means of improving the world include working with folks who don’t necessarily believe the same thing as I do. I find that I learn more this way. I’ve still got my homies to keep me in check :)

  16. Hey, just found a link to this.

    @C.J.: I agree with you completely, we need to follow the teachings of Dale Carnegie. We just need to convince Microsoft and other like-minded companies out there that Free Software is in their best interest. Attacking them over old wrongs isn’t going to win them over or change their minds.

    Lastly, part financing the SCO case isn’t ‘ working with the Free Software world’ ..

    Let’s not forget that Sun Microsystems also funded SCO at the start of the SCO attacks. Today, however, we consider Sun our ally (and rightly so) because we’ve managed to convince them that supporting Free Software is in their best interest.

    Sun was won over, not by needlessly bashing them, but by convincing them that FOSS was the way to go. And now, because of that, we have OpenSolaris and a GPL’d Java (and other things, I’m sure).

    Remember: forgiveness is key.

  17. Well done, but its a lost cause, If you dont toe the line and be a Roy YES man you get kicked.

    They dont like their ears to be polluted with any vile words and pollute their fragile and thin skins.

    Thats what happens when you question the ideaology of a zealot. and attack the cult of Roy.

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