But don’t take my word for it. The folks on their IRC channel have put it pretty plainly themselves. They’re not interested in offering solutions to problems, they instead seem interested in bemoaning their lot in life for fun and profit.

— Log opened Wed Sep 03 23:06:26 2008
23:06 -!- Irssi: #boycottnovell: Total of 17 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 14 normal]
23:06 -!- Irssi: Join to #boycottnovell was synced in 0 secs
23:06 < cj> yay!
23:06 <@schestowitz> I need you to show me where they do this.
23:06 < seller_liar> and now globo depends from money governement
23:07 < seller_liar> what?
23:07 <@schestowitz> I mean, if you find examples or just articles (even in Protuguese) then it can be shown to Brazilian people what Globo does to them.
23:07 <@schestowitz> Hi, cj.
23:08 < cj> hi there, schestowitz! for the record, I am close with a bunch of folks at Novell and I am on contract at MS
23:08 < seller_liar> At moment , I find only that article above
23:08 < cj> also, I’m one of the first 20 or so users of this network :)
23:08 < cj> (freenode/openprojects/linpeople)
23:08 < seller_liar> linpeople?
23:08 < cj> seller_liar: check archive.org
23:09 < tessier__> cj: So you gonna dish up the scoop on those sleezeballs over at Novell? :)
23:09 <@schestowitz> :-)
23:09 < cj> seller_liar: it was rob levin’s first channel on the “linux internet support cooperative”
23:09 < seller_liar> cj:ok
23:09 < cj> tessier__: heh, none of them are sleezeballs afaict. they’re on the level.
23:11 <@schestowitz> What contract at Microsoft?
23:11 < cj> schestowitz: testing a feature in the next release of forefront
23:14 < cj> schestowitz: implementation of the GAPA stuff documented here: http://research.microsoft.com/research/shield/
23:15 <@schestowitz> Which company for?
23:15 < cj> schestowitz: saxon & taylor
23:16 <@schestowitz> Got homepage? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c2coff=1&q=saxon+taylor&btnG=Search
23:16 < seller_liar> schestowitz: sorry , I don t have any real proof ,but i believe this contracts exists
23:16 < cj> https://www.sakson.com/
23:16 < seller_liar> schestowitz: oops, a mistake ,forget about it
23:16 < cj> sorry, sakson :)
23:18 <@schestowitz> :)
23:19 <@schestowitz> Are you in contract with Microsoft?
23:19 < cj> as for miguel’s motives, I think he’s really quite interested in helping the f/oss folks out. every time I’ve spoken with him, he has come across as a well-meaning individual.
23:19 < cj> schestowitz: my contract is with S&T. They have a direct relationship with MSFT
23:20 <@schestowitz> Yes, I know. A friend of him told me (mutual friend)
23:20 <@schestowitz> But he’s tied to more than just F/OSS.
23:21 < cj> He and RMS have a long history together. They both mean well, but see the problem from a different perspective. Richard is more ideological. Miguel is more pragmatic.
23:21 <@schestowitz> I see it differently.
23:21 < cj> I can’t say that I agree with either of them fully, but their end goal is positive and not self-serving.
23:21 <@schestowitz> People like Gates really believe and convince themselves that they do good. But they do fraud.
23:22 <@schestowitz> Likewise, although it’s a bad analogy, Miguel looks to elev ate a company like Novell, please his mates from Microsoft (which he cannot realise is quite the criminal entity) and F/OSS is just somewhere among his priorities.
23:22 < cj> schestowitz: nothing is black and white. he heads the largest do-gooder institute ever seen in the world. he also ran a company that has been convicted of antitrust… many times.
23:23 < cj> (I was referring to gates)
23:23 <@schestowitz> Gates Foundation is not a do-gooder.
23:23 < cj> oh?
23:23 <@schestowitz> The charity is a ‘side effect’ that’s embellished via lots of grassroots/astroturf
23:24 <@schestowitz> You can see if as it happens in big magazine he owns.
23:24 < cj> they’ve invested heavily in my daughters’ hospital for one…
23:24 <@schestowitz> The Gates FOundation is a vehicle for him (and Warren) to escape tax and get some more benefit and a feelgood sensation.
23:24 <@schestowitz> cj: some thieves give some of the loot away.
23:25 <@schestowitz> The classic robber baron is one that’s also glorified.
23:25 <@schestowitz> I ask you kindly to watch the following video: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/02/the-money-question-influence/
23:25 <@schestowitz> (It’s embedded in the page)
23:27 < cj> I’ll take a look when I get home. thanks.
23:27 <@schestowitz> It’s a lot of work to undo damage of brainwash. Such as the glorification of the Novell/Microsoft deal, where journalists totally neglect the view of programmer who actually built the system.
23:27 < cj> schestowitz: what is a way to improve the situation? how can either or both of the companies be improved so that you don’t see it as such a catastrophe?
23:28 <@schestowitz> BTW, Oracle seems to be a big fraud as well (just been in the news)
23:28 < cj> heh, I thought everybody knew about Larry…
23:28 <@schestowitz> Securities fraud… Ellison shredded E-mails that serve as evidence; as did Intel.
23:29 <@schestowitz> Larry is crazy. I knew he was a snake when I read about him breaking the law with his fancy yacht/plane fetish. He even joked about breaking the law in a video interview I watched.
23:30 <@schestowitz> There’s that book about ‘God’ and ‘Ellison’. What’s the difference between God and Ellison? God doesn’t think he’s Ellison. To Larry, it’s all about being richer and bigger than Gates. He too ‘donates’ (invests) in hospitals.
23:34 < cj> so what’s a proactive solution?
23:35 < cj> there needs to be a relationship between proprietary and free software vendors. how should that relationship be carried out, optimally?
23:36 <@schestowitz> Well, ego elation in big companies is an issue. They have no boundaries, so they ‘shape’ their reports and ruthlessly destroy the small competitors. The work RMS does always revolves around society, not business. He raises this point constantly because people are mistakenly educated so as to believe good business make a good society (there’s no such relationship).
23:36 < cj> is it best to have standards bodies (w3c, ieee, etc) take that roll? should vendors who sell Free software be banned from doing business with those who produce proprietary software?
23:37 < cj> s/roll/role/
23:37 < tessier__> schestowitz: How did Ellison break the law with his yacht/plane fetish?
23:37 < wasabi> And who would enforce said bans? Would we put people in prison? :)
23:37 <@schestowitz> RMS would probably say based on his experience that all business needs to evolve towards a model of sharing, _in due time_. A digital world can take advantage of this and blow the gap between poverty and affluence.
23:37 <@schestowitz> tessier: he flew under a bridge.
23:37 < cj> oh, wassabi is another infiltrat0r, fyi :)
23:37 <@schestowitz> It’s against aviation policies.
23:38 <@schestowitz> Bans?
23:40 < cj> schestowitz: should vendors who sell Free software be banned from doing business with those who produce proprietary software?
23:43 <@schestowitz> In what context and why?
23:44 < cj> schestowitz: have you been reading what I wrote above?
23:44 <@schestowitz> Yes, I have.
23:45 < cj> schestowitz: I’m asking what novell and microsoft are doing wrong, and what can be done to improve the process so that all participants are happy.
23:45 <@schestowitz> About standards.
23:45 < cj> they are complying with the GPL, BSD and MIT/X11 licenses… this doesn’t seem to be enough?
23:45 < cj> oh, LGPL as well
23:45 < cj> and Artistic
23:45 <@schestowitz> I think the answer is obvious. It didn’t cost Microsoft a dime to participate in the ISO standards for document and the W3C’s work.
23:45 < cj> and loads of others…
23:45 < cj> schestowitz: oh!?
23:45 <@schestowitz> Instead they run away form standards and demand cash for anti-standards.
23:46 < cj> schestowitz: have you seen what the cost is to be a member of the w3c? for a company Microsoft’s size, it’s huge.
23:46 < cj> more than “a dime”
23:46 <@schestowitz> That’s beside the point.
23:47 <@schestowitz> If they don’t take the lead, they can follow and participate at some level. The W3C doesn’t make use of proprietary and patent-ridden bits.
23:47 <@schestowitz> Not even GIF
23:47 < cj> schestowitz: I think you’re misinformed. do you know what ECMA-335 is, for instance?
23:47 <@schestowitz> As for Microsoft, it’s not trying to contaminate W3C (Wilson) with DRM and JS ruin.
23:47 <@schestowitz> I don’t know the code.
23:49 < cj> schestowitz: there are tons of patents on this technology, for instance:
23:49 < cj> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/
23:50 < cj> schestowitz: I agree that the relationship between Novell and Microsoft is sub-optimal, but ranting about things which are inaccurate rather than offering proactive steps helps noone.
23:50 <@schestowitz> /whose/ patents?
23:51 <@schestowitz> See the following to meet the point that’s arrived here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05/27/mono-and-rand-for-gnome/
23:52 < cj> schestowitz: *shrug* lots of folks. mostly at MS, I assume.
23:52 < cj> http://usasearch.gov/search?affiliate=uspto.gov&v%3Aproject=firstgov&query=XML
23:54 <@schestowitz> I already know that they have such patents. That’s not news to anyone.
23:54 <@schestowitz> Who again are you?
23:55 < cj> The W3C doesn’t make use of proprietary and patent-ridden bits.
23:55 < cj> why did you say that if you already know that they have such patents?
23:55 < cj> did you not know that the W3C publishes TRs about XML?
23:56 <@schestowitz> The W3C acts as a form of patent pool.
23:56 <@schestowitz> Much like LiMo.
23:56 < cj> http://web.archive.org/web/19961109144913/http://www.linpeople.org/ <- I’m ‘Da_Man’ there
23:57 < cj> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Levin
23:58 < cj> I guess that makes me a founding member of freenode
— Day changed Thu Sep 04 2008
00:13 <@schestowitz> Nice one.
00:13 * schestowitz slow to reply because of multitasking
00:16 < tessier__> cj: Microsoft and Novell are trying to kill FOSS and maintain their monopoly. That’s wrong.
00:16 < tessier__> They were already convicted of having such a monopoly by Judge Jackson.
00:17 <@schestowitz> Judge Jackson called them “Criminals”.
00:18 < tessier__> All of the leaked documents about how they want to kill FOSS are pretty damning too
00:19 < tessier__> I take it personally because if they kill FOSS they kill my career. Linux paid for my house.
00:19 <@schestowitz> http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/halloween11.html “I also expect a serious effort, backed by several billion dollars in bribe money (oops, excuse me, campaign contributions), to get open-source software outlawed on some kind of theory that it aids terrorists.”
00:19 <@schestowitz> ” We can only defeat that by making sure that national governments become so attached to open-source code that their military men and bureaucrats will short-stop the bribed legislators, rather than let their vital infrastructure be outlawed.”
00:20 < cj> tessier__: I do not believe that MS or Novell are trying to kill F/OSS
00:21 < tessier__> cj: MS says it is. It’s a cancer, remember?
00:21 < cj> nor could they were they to want to
00:21 < tessier__> cj: Probably not. But they have certainly killed lots of other companies.
00:22 < cj> tessier__: perhaps someone employed by MS said that, I’ll give you that. The folks I’ve worked with don’t seem to feel that way.
00:22 < tessier__> cj: The folks you work with don’t run MS.
00:22 < tessier__> They spent a lot of money on a “Linux is a cancer” campaign which came from the top.
00:22 < cj> tessier__: if you mean they intend to bring redhat or canonical to bankruptcy, perhaps I’d buy that. but linux is not a company.
00:23 < tessier__> cj: They didn’t say RedHat or Canonical. They said Linux was a cancer.
00:23 <@schestowitz> *LOL* “they don’t say it to me” … “Microsoft really loves open source”..”they are nice people”…….*LOL* Classic.
00:23 < cj> tessier__: so you’re confused?
00:23 < tessier__> I’m not confused at all.
00:24 <@schestowitz> tessier: that’s not correct. The people at the ‘bottom’ say that too.
00:24 < cj> “they have certainly killed lots of other companies” sounds non-sequiter for someone who is not confused…
00:24 <@schestowitz> They just can’t say it in public. Let me find something.
00:25 <@schestowitz> http://boycottnovell.com/2008/03/27/microsoft-wants-money-at-osbc/
00:25 < cj> schestowitz: if you continue to lower yourself to ad homonym, you’ll hurt your credibility further.
00:26 <@schestowitz> “Open source is stealing. What open source does is copying proprietary software and giving it away for free. Open source is not about innovation or innovating, it’s about copying. It infringes on everybody’s patents. Not just Microsoft’s. But we’re just the most vocal about it. We just can not see this happening and not do anything to protect our business […] What open source and communism have in common, is that there
00:26 <@schestowitz> are both failed systems”.
00:26 <@schestowitz> cj: ad hominem? Where?
00:27 < cj> *LOL*? “they are nice people”?
00:27 < cj> schestowitz: laughing and misquoting
00:32 < cj> I’m sorry to hear that some folks feel that way. However, those that I’ve spoken with don’t hold that opinion.
00:32 < cj> and yes, tessier__, some of my friends do run parts of microsoft.
00:33 < cj> this conversation strikes me as xenophobic…
00:33 <@schestowitz> Good for them. They take order from people who break the law.
00:33 <@schestowitz> *orders
00:33 <@schestowitz> cj: sadly for them, they fail to understand who they serve and what the impact on society is. It’s call Kool-Aid.
00:34 < cj> schestowitz: you seem unfit to make that judgment… you do not know them or their intent…
00:35 < cj> schestowitz: and I’m still waiting for your recommendations on how to adjust the status quo so that it meets the needs of society in a better way.
00:35 <@schestowitz> I saw what they write. Patronisation is dangerous. A company whose employees express desire to ’tilt “X” into the death spiral’ and use ISVs as “pawns” and “one night stands”.
00:35 < cj> schestowitz: and no, “tear it down and start all over” doesn’t count, in my book.
00:36 <@schestowitz> On whose behalf are you asking?
00:36 < cj> free software developers
00:37 < cj> well, on my own as a free software developer
00:43 < cj> it would be presunmptive of me to ask on the behalf of others, without having their consent :)
00:51 <@schestowitz> Who job do you do for Microsoft?
00:52 < cj> schestowitz: did you send folks to spam #mono?
00:52 < cj> who job?
00:53 <@schestowitz> ???
00:53 < cj> I do not understand “Who job do you do”
00:53 <@schestowitz> Spam Mono? Send? What am I? Some don who ‘sends’ peple…?
00:54 < cj> schestowitz: *shrug* someone there suggested the spammers were your “lackeys”
00:55 < cj> I don’t know why he would have said that, but I thought I would ask you rather than accuse you. perhaps I can defend your reputation?
00:55 < cj> if you were asking what I do at MS, I said above. allow me to scroll back…
00:56 < cj> testing a feature in the next release of forefront; implementation of the GAPA stuff documented here: http://research.microsoft.com/research/shield/
00:58 <@schestowitz> Why doesn’t the Almighty Microsoft make security a feature of the O/S? If it came make a browser a feature you cannot even remove from the O/S, why not security?
00:59 < cj> schestowitz: they did. it’s in vista. GAPA is an additional feature.
01:00 < cj> when you buy an individual system, you don’t really need a enterprise-wide managed firewall.
01:00 < cj> but it does come with a personal firewall.
01:00 < cj> s/ a / an /
01:01 <@schestowitz> it’s a nice business model that Microsoft has got going. They should make the O/S more crashy (they already did that with LH/Vista) and then sell better stability as a product.
01:01 <@schestowitz> Vista is not secure. It’s a Big Lie.
01:01 <@schestowitz> It was proven by scientists.
01:01 < cj> *shrug* I’m not claiming that vista is a good OS. I’m just answering your question.
01:04 < cj> so, do you have any recommendations for improving the social responsibility of Novell and MS? What would you consider a worthwhile move on the part of either of the companies?
01:05 < cj> or are you just using the boycottnovell campaign as a platform to enlarge your ego?
01:06 <@schestowitz> The SEC is advised to pay a long visit to both companies and inform the investors it was made to protect about the truth; that’ll be a good start.
01:06 < cj> what would be a positive end to this campaign? The Montgomery Bus Boycot was not held to destroy the bus system, it was held to improve the situation and gather attention to a problem which had a solution.
01:07 < cj> to me, it seems like you are complaining for the sake of complaining with a side effect of you getting attention…
01:08 < cj> schestowitz: I mean what could the companies do *themselves*? Is your recommendation really that the companies continue as they are until the authorities *make* them do something else?
01:10 < cj> you have yet to confirm or deny that spammers were sent to #mono at your behest…
01:11 < tessier> First we need to get rid of software patents.
01:11 < tessier> Then MS can’t claim (but never prove) that Linux violates hundreds of their patenst
01:11 < tessier> patents
01:12 < tessier> To say Linux violates hundreds of patents but never say which ones so they can be fixed is a pretty sleezy move.
01:12 < cj> perhaps reform would be a more feasible bet. I’m not a fan of software patents either, but they’re already part of society.
01:13 < cj> classifying software as a form of mathematics would bring the tower crumbling down… but that may be more catostrophe than can be handled…
01:13 <@schestowitz> I never ‘sent’ anyone anywhere and I didn’t know a Mono channel exists. I knew about go-oo
01:14 < cj> irc.gimp.net, #mono
01:16 -!- Irssi: #boycottnovell: Total of 16 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 13 normal]
01:18 <@schestowitz> No, thank you, sir.
01:18 < cj> schestowitz: it seems the spammers are from the same domain as mib_e1zoms / mib_jm8dfl
01:19 <@schestowitz> Look, I won’t be spending time with some accusations that are baseless and stupid and false. Mib is mibbit.
01:21 < cj> I’m not accusing. I’m just noting that it seems to me that the regulars of this channel react to a rational conversation with network abuse.
01:21 < cj> mib_e1zoms: was that you?
01:21 < cj> mib_jm8dfl: ^^
01:22 <@schestowitz> I don’t use mibbit
01:22 < cj> schestowitz: … I didn’t claim that you did?
01:23 <@schestowitz> I find it amusing if not flattering that any form of inconvenience to Mono is now blamed on me, by default.
01:23 < cj> :)
01:24 < cj> schestowitz: have you read this?
01:24 < cj> http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3768961/Sam+Ramji+Microsofts+Man+in+Open+Source.htm
01:29 < cj> Q: Certainly you’re aware that some observers are skeptical about the concept of Microsoft having an open source strategy. How do you respond to this?
01:29 < cj> Our open source strategy, now and in the future, is to continue a journey in which we participate with others in learning how open source products and technologies, Microsoft products and technologiesand sometimes open source products and technologies from Microsoftcan coexist, combine, and comingle in ways that offer value to customers, developers and IT administrators, partners businesses, and, as a commercial company, our shareholders.
01:29 < cj> But our strategy remains unchanged. Microsoft competes with Linux and Unix servers with Windows servers; we’re going to find ways to interoperate between Linux and Windows because lots of our customers run both; and we want to grow the open-source ecosystem as it relates to Microsoft software.
01:38 < cj> should the Apache Software Foundation be boycotted as well? If not, what is the distinction?
01:40 * schestowitz catching up
01:42 <@schestowitz> ct: you come here as a person who works for Microsoft (indirectly) and you sing about the wonders of Microsoft. Do you even know what Ramji is doing? Search BN as this was covered before. The same with Apache. It’s all there.
01:42 < cj> sorry, I missed the part where I was singing about the wonders…
04:01 < tessier> Software patents are completely unworkable. Reform is not an option.
04:01 < tessier> Software is math and you can’t patent math.
04:01 < tessier> It’s not a matter of classification, it’s a matter of fact.
04:02 < tessier> You can’t count to infinity without reproducing the entire source code of Windows Vista. Count yourself lucky nobody is pushing the issue of copyright in general.
04:13 < wasabi> You can have a bunch of monkeys work forever, and eventualy they’ll write a book.
04:13 < wasabi> But that book is still copyrighted.
04:14 < wasabi> I fail to see the conclusion properly following hte premises.
04:14 < wasabi> patent law, and most law, isn’t about weird theoritical abstracts.
04:15 < wasabi> it’s about real world things, in our country, and others, in this day and time.
04:40 < tessier> But I’m not talking about monkeys typing randomly. I’m talking about math
04:41 < tessier> And math cannot be patented.
04:42 -!- cj was kicked from #boycottnovell by [H]omer [[H]omer]
— Log closed Thu Sep 04 04:42:13 2008
— Log opened Thu Sep 04 04:42:34 2008
04:42 -!- Irssi: #boycottnovell: Total of 16 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 13 normal]
04:42 -!- mode/#boycottnovell [+b *!*@pdpc/supporter/monthlybronze/cj] by ChanServ
04:42 -!- cj was kicked from #boycottnovell by ChanServ [Banned: Goodbye Astroturfer]
— Log closed Thu Sep 04 04:42:34 2008